Comments for whyileft.org

Comment on What Does The Bible Say About Salvation? by Josh (Site Admin)

Josh (Site Admin) — Fri, 18 May 2012 21:44:40 +0000

Angela,

I’m so happy that the Web site has been a help! I think you’re doing the right thing by searching everything out. It’s a long and frightening process, and Scripture makes it clear that the apostles firmly approved of people searching the Scriptures to verify that what they heard was true. If Paul can approve of people questioning him then who am I to complain when people question me! (Not saying you are, but I’m sure many do.)

The question you asked about Isaiah 28:11 is an excellent one. This is what it says:

“Indeed, He will speak to this people
Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,
He who said to them, ‘Here is rest, give rest to the weary,’
And, ‘Here is repose,” but they would not listen.’” (Isaiah 28:11-12 NASB)

Paul referenced that Scripture in his discussion of tongues, and the apostolic movement frequently uses it as proof that tongues is God’s way of communicating with us in the modern age. Their argument goes something like this: “Aha! Isaiah prophesied hundreds of years before Pentecost that stammering lips and tongues would be the way that God spoke to His people! Tongues is the evidence of the Holy Ghost, and that’s why Isaiah said it brought rest! If you’re weary and need rest then stop resisting God and come up to the altar!”

Now, don’t think I’m mocking people who teach that. It sounds very logical, but only if one takes Isaiah 28:11-12 out of context. When it’s read in context the message becomes very, very different. The passage is too long to quote here, but the first 8 verses of Isaiah 28 talk about how God is about to judge Ephraim (Israel) for their various sins. Verse 7 points out that the prophets and priests are drunk while “having visions” and “rendering judgment,” and the Lord seems particularly displeased with that. Then, in verse 9, Isaiah asks:

“To whom would He teach knowledge,
And to whom would He interpret the message?
Those just weaned from milk?
Those just taken from the breast?”

Now that it is clear that God has tried again and again to teach Ephraim but Ephraim refuses to learn, He says:

“For He says,
‘Order on order, order on order,
Line on line, line on line,
A little here, a little there.’
Indeed, He will speak to this people
Through stammering lips and a foreign tongue,
He who said to them, ‘Here is rest, give rest to the weary,’
And, ‘Here is repose,’ but they would not listen.
So the word of the Lord to them will be,
‘Order on order, order on order,
Line on line, line on line,
A little here, a little there,’
That they may go and stumble backward, be broken, snared and taken captive.” (Isaiah 28:10-13 NASB)

As one can see, the tongues that are promised in Isaiah 28 are not good at all. The prophecy isn’t about Pentecost, it’s about Israel being lead into captivity by the Assyrians. Scholars point out that the “stammering lips” was probably a reference to the Assyrian language (the Hebrew language was similar enough for them to understand each other) and the foreign language (translated as “tongues” in the KJV) was just that–a foreign language. In other words, the tongues in Isaiah 28 were very natural and they were the result of a promise because the Israelites had rejected rest, they were not a promise of rest in themselves. As a matter of fact, they were about as far from rest as you can get. The Assyrians were incredibly cruel. They made the Babylonians look like the nicest folks in town.

Now, the interpretation of Isaiah 28 is very clear. There’s nothing ambiguous about it. So why did Paul repeat the prophecy in 1 Cor. 14:21? And doesn’t he make it seem like the prophecy was about the gift of tongues?

Yes and no.

Paul never treated Isaiah 28:11 like it was referring to the modern gift of tongues. This is what Paul said:

“Brothers and sisters, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults. In the Law it is written:

‘With other tongues
and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.’

Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers” (1 Cor. 14:20-22a)

Is Paul saying that Isaiah 28:11 referred to the gift of tongues? Absolutely not. He’s saying that the “tongues” used by the Assyrians were a sign to Israel because they didn’t believe God, and the gift of tongues is now a sign to unbelievers who do not believe God. In other words, Paul is teaching a message from an Old Testament prophecy, he’s not claiming the fulfillment of the prophecy. In the Old Covenant the tongues were a punishment and in the New Covenant they are a gift. However, Paul hastens to add:

“prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers. So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and inquirers or unbelievers come in, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if an unbeliever or an inquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, ‘God is really among you!’” (1 Cor. 14:20b-25)

So yes, Paul verified that tongues are a sign, but they’re not a sign of receiving the Holy Spirit. Why? Because those who receive the Holy Spirit already believe. They don’t need a sign. To claim that Paul taught that tongues is a sign of receiving the Holy Spirit would be a grave error, because that’s the exact opposite of what he said.

I hope that answers your question!

In Christ,
Josh S.

Comment on What Does The Bible Say About Salvation? by Angela

Angela — Fri, 18 May 2012 19:46:24 +0000

Josh,

Love the article!
Agree…but am still searching it out for fear of being wrong! LOL! That being said, could you figure in the scriptures spoken by the prophets concerning tongues?
Mainly…and possibly only… Isaiah 28:11? If I’m not mistaken, Paul made referrence to this scripture in 1 Corinthians 14:21.

Thanks. Your website has really benn a God-send for me.

Angela

Comment on What does the Bible say about facial hair? by Josh (Site Admin)

Josh (Site Admin) — Mon, 14 May 2012 18:34:16 +0000

Wilson,

I think it’s great that they did that, but when I left the UPC in 2006 it was still taboo (at least in the churches / states I lived in). Some churches allowed mustaches but none that I attended would allow beards on the platform.

Josh S.

Comment on What does the Bible say about facial hair? by wilson

wilson — Fri, 11 May 2012 09:40:38 +0000

Upc org, passed a vote couple of years ago to allow facial hair on platforms at their national conventions due to majority of speakers that attended were african american pastors with facial hair…..

Comment on What does the Bible say about women wearing pants? by Ashley Morgan

Ashley Morgan — Wed, 09 May 2012 21:23:55 +0000

Loved your book Angela!
This page really helped me in so many ways!
Thank you Josh

Comment on John 3:16 (Misinterpreted Scriptures) by Josh (Site Admin)

Josh (Site Admin) — Wed, 09 May 2012 18:49:06 +0000

Brenda,

I’m going to sidestep the question about the word “Trinity” because that’s a topic I’ve never dealt with directly on this site. I might do it in the future, but the Oneness vs. Trinity debate had no bearing on me leaving the UPC so it doesn’t fit with the current design of the site.

To answer your question in a general sense, though, technically any word that you use will not be in the Bible unless you happen to speak koine Greek, Hebrew, or Aramaic. Even if you did speak those languages you would still use words and phrases that were not directly in the Bible. Why? Because the concepts often are. For example, the words “Jesus is God” are not in the Bible, but the concept behind those words is. Therefore I can stand behind a pulpit and preach a sermon about the deity of Christ without feeling any guilt or shame.

The same goes for the Trinity and the rapture. The majority of Christians firmly believe that the concept of the Trinity is found in the Bible. A smaller but still significant percentage believe that the concept of the rapture is there as well. Whether or not those are valid concepts is a discussion for another time and place. The point, though, is that a word does not have to be explicitly found in Scripture for it to be used.

In Christ,
Josh S.

Comment on John 3:16 (Misinterpreted Scriptures) by Brenda

Brenda — Wed, 09 May 2012 14:52:28 +0000

Why do people say ‘trinity’ and ‘rapture’… when it is clearly not in the Bible!

Comment on What does the Bible say about women wearing pants? by Josh (Site Admin)

Josh (Site Admin) — Mon, 07 May 2012 23:37:08 +0000

Angela,

No need to apologize, I’ve been known to write the occasional book myself :). I enjoyed reading your comment!

In Christ,
Josh S.

Comment on What does the Bible say about women wearing pants? by Angela

Angela — Mon, 07 May 2012 23:17:44 +0000

I forgot part of my point! LOL!

To admit that what you have been taught and believed for so long is wrong, is VERY, VERY hard. Most won’t even consider it.

Comment on What does the Bible say about women wearing pants? by Angela

Angela — Mon, 07 May 2012 23:04:39 +0000

It’s very possible I may be about to stop each and every one of you in your tracks…and maybe not. I’ve read nearly every comment posted on this particular topic on your website.
Quick background-Raised Pentecostal. Questioned ALL standards taught as holiness at a very young age, but under my parent’s roof I did as I was told. Moved out, married, moved away. Could never reconcile what I was taught with having a personal relationship with God. Lived with a missing part, filled it with alcohol. Cryed out to Jesus who gently led me back to Him. He delivered me from drinking and smoking and placed me in an amazing church under leadership that was exactly what I needed. My Pastor does not preach a dress code…EVER. Because he believes that when you have a relationship with Jesus, you live a holy life and it shows on the outside in the form of modesty.
Here’s where you’re eyes may get really big and your next swallow goes down the wrong pipe sending you into a choking fit! LOL! (I hope it’s alright to use the LOL. I find it communicate a tone a bit better)
I keep reading comments stating that it is sinful for a woman to wear pants because it draws attention to the crotch area, they show the line of the backside and the feminine curves of the body, etc. Since when are women the ONLY object of sexual lust?
I don’t know about you other women (I mean that with no disrespect), but I happen to be an individual who enjoys the curve, or lack thereof, however you choose to veiw it, of a man’s body! I think there is something beautiful about the human body in ALMOST any shape. I can tell you, that I can see the nice muscular curve of a man’s thigh just as well as you can see the outline of a woman’s behind in a pair of jeans! Not to mention HIS behind!!
Now, let me explain something to those of you who think that I am being lustful. There is a HUGE difference between looking at someone and thinking it is appealing to your eye, and looking at someone with COVETOUSNESS! THIS is where those of us who have looked what we have been taught in the eye without bias and challanged it to find that most of it is a situation of personal conviction. If God has convicted you of wearing pants, I suggest you not wear them, but don’t teach it as a salvation issue from behind the pulpit, because there is absolutely NO evidence to support it.
You can believe me when I say, having had those standards beat into my head for 20 years of my life, it is VERY difficult to let go, EVEN WHEN YOU DON’T AGREE WITH IT. The nation of Islam truly believes that what they believe is correct!! If you challange them with it, the first response is going to be them telling you that they are right and YOU are wrong! I grew up with a cousin who was not taught as I was, but she would attend church with me from time to time. To don a skirt for church made her VERY uncomfortable. There is a very fine line between conviction and discomfort because you have been taught to believe that it is or isn’t right. Know the difference. Search out the scriptures for yourself. Do not believe everything preached from the pulpit! I don’t say that disrespectfully to Pastors, Preachers or the like. I say it with the knowledge, that Paul told us to TEST THE SPIRIT! We were also told to study to show THYSELF approved. Each man will give an account of HIMSELF. I don’t want to be the one standing before God saying…”Well Lord, I just did what the man of God told me to do.” Remember that the man of God that was sent to Jeraboam was lied to by another prophet.
I am against any teacher who says we are not to question God. Search out the Bible and you will find many men who questioned God. How are we to test the spirit if we are not to question Him…or it?
I was also faced with the scriptures stating things like “Narrow is the way and few there be that find it.” “There is a way that seemeth right to man but the end is death thereof.” “Many are called, but few are chosen”, etc.
We were taught our entire lives, that to be set apart and distinguished from the world was to follow the dress code. Scriptures like “Come out from the world and be ye seperate” were used, but here is the meat of those scriptures. When Jesus told us to come out and be seperate, he didn’t mean to set ourselves apart by making our ladies wear skirts because that’s the only way you can identify a Godly woman. What He is telling us, is that we are not to be like the world. We are not to be UNHOLY and profane like murderers, manslayers, fornicators, sodomites, kidnappers, liars, perjerers, etc. When He tells us that “Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for a friend” He wasn’t speaking ONLY of the scrifice He Himself made for us, he was also referring to US AS CHRISTIANS, dying out to the flesh and laying our lives down to give of ourselves to the lost!!! He told His desciples, “You will know them by their fruit.” NOT how they dress. THAT is one reason we are to TEST the spirit! (I’m not shouting, just very annimated and passionate about this subject) I’m sure we all know that the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. He said that He is the vinedresser and that every branch that bears FRUIT He prunes, THAT IT MAY BEAR MORE FRUIT! The fruit is not for the bearer, the fruit is for the sinner and the Christian alike and shows that we are seperate! We are to be showing the sinner the fruits of the Spirit. Showing them Jesus! What He meant when He said (in laymens terms) not many of them are gonna make it, is that there aren’t many people who will make the sacrifice of their lives. They won’t GIVE UP themselves and love like Jesus did! Just a small example-when Jesus was on trial and being accused, He did not defend Himself. If you or I were on trial, and someone said, “You are a hateful vindictive person!” How many of us would keep our mouths shut and not attempt to convince the accuser of all the reasons why we think we aren’t hateful and vindictive? How many of us are REALLY going to turn the other cheek? See, turning the other cheek doesn’t JUST mean that you don’t defend yourself, it also means that you don’t go back to Bobby Joe with the story of “You just won’t believe what so and so did to me. But I didn’t say a word to them. I was righteous!” THAT my friends, is slander, and we were told not to do that as well. If you were in conversation with someone who was letting loose about what that same person had done to them, could you stop that person and tell them you aren’t going to throw stones and cut the conversation short, although your feelings had been hurt by them as well? Or would you listen to what they had to say then join in with your own story?
I think we need to wake up and realize that the “greatest of these is love”. We think that it is easy to love. It’s not. To love like Jesus did takes the very breath from your body….for lost souls you have no fleshly connection to. THAT is foundation of what Jesus REQUIRES from His children. To give of our lives.
I’ve often heard of what Jesus spoke about the Scribes and Pharisees used in this same arguement of God being concerned with what we wear. He said of them, “You cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self indulgence.” and, “You are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and all uncleanness.” He is concerned about the outside, but how they were dressed was not what He was referring to. Back up a bit and you will find Him talking about it not being what goes into the body that defiles you, but what comes out. He said that the Scribes and Pharisees were talking the talk on the outside, but they weren’t walking the walk on the inside. That’s why He told them to do what the Scribes and Pharisees SAID to do, but not to follow what they themselves were DOING because they weren’t doing as they said. It had NOTHING to do with what they were wearing.
Ladies, what makes you SEPERATE from the world when you have Jesus, is that YOU HAVE JESUS. You love your neighbor as yourself, you are kind, giving, patient, etc. Worldly folk don’t produce fruit. If you think they do..it’s purely ornamental. Pretty to look at, but nasty to taste.
I see women in skirts nearly everyday that I used to attend church with who turn their nose up at me when they see me. Is that loving your neighbor as yourself? I see those same women stand in line behind the WIC and Welfare customers shifting impatiently from one foot to the other while making condescending comments under their breath. Is that loving your neighbor as yourself? That was the second greatest commandment, right? Your neighbor is not JUST the person that lives next door to you. Your neighbors are your brothers and sisters in Christ and every lost soul that needs Jesus.
Josh, I apologize for writing nearly a book here, but I want so very badly to get Christians to see that it IS indeed a heart condition, BUT when your heart is Holy, it will manifest on the outside in MODEST dress.

God Bless you all