The issue with legalistic doctrine is that it actually separates us from God. I didn’t say that, the apostle Paul did.

In Galatians a group of Jews were trying to tell the Gentiles that they needed to be circumcised. As a man, I can’t imagine anything that would require more devotion than that! From our perspective it seems like God would be pretty pleased with that kind of devotion. You’d think that God would be giving a tip of His hat to the brave men in Galatia who were going above and beyond, right? But this is what Paul said:

“1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!” (Gal. 5:1-12 NIV, emphasis mine)

The issue with legalism is that it naturally leads to an attempt to justify ourselves by our works instead of by Christ’s completed work. That’s why Paul wrote that if we start thinking we have to follow part of the law then we’re obligated to follow ALL of the law.

With that said, there are plenty of things that people do that aren’t required by God. Look at Mother Theresa or Shane Claiborne, people who live their lives in service to others. Are they trying to be justified through works? Not at all. They have made vows to God with the recognition that those vows aren’t required, but yet they feel it’s what they are compelled to do. They don’t look at someone who doesn’t do those things and say, “You aren’t saved.” And that’s the crucial difference.

If the UPC kept every holiness standard but yet still honestly believed that those standards weren’t necessary for salvation, and if they honestly and openly fellowshipped with other Christians who didn’t keep those standards, and if they honestly believed that those other Christians were really going to heaven, then I wouldn’t have a single problem with them doing it. The problem that I have is not that they feel obligated to do certain things that aren’t necessary, but that they’ve made those things necessary for salvation. They might say that they haven’t, but anyone who has spent any amount of time in a UPC church knows differently.

In Christ,
- Josh S.

If it is beyond your beliefs, then in a sense it is “above and beyond” the call of duty. So what does it matter? They get to heaven, God says, “You didn’t have to do all that you did, but since it was above what was intended, come on in, welcome to heaven!”

I don’t agree that everything the Amish observe is necessary, but in this day where everything goes, I at least admire anyone that still takes a stand. If you don’t agree with them, at least pray for them and ask God to give them strength, guidance and wisdom.

If a standard is above mine, I view them as being all the more ‘safe’. So what is the harm in that? If I am too bothered by it, I must examine if I am subconsciously trying to justify where I am more than point out the error of their ways. Not saying that is the underlying issue here, just makes me scratch my head.

Romans 14 is a great chapter I have pointed friends to it that get into conflicts over issues that to them are not even heaven or hell issues. As Paul wrote, if you believe it to be sin, to you it is sin – of course with the key words wrote being, let ever man be fully persuaded in his own heart.

If to them it is sin, why place a stumbling-block in the path if it is a standard of holiness that is beyond or more separated than your own beliefs?

When Jeremiah presented wine to the Recabites, they refused to drink the wine, not by God’s commandment, but a forefather (Jonadab) taught them not to drink wine, among other things, that was beyond anything God or Moses had ever commanded; Yet God used them for an example, and recognized their dedication and commitment.

However, to that day and time, I’m sure that someone (knowing human nature) condemned them for what appeared to be legalism or extreme beliefs.

Most of the holiness men I know, have far surpassed any requirement I can name to be on any deacon board of any major denomination. So what if their holiness is greater than mine? All the better I say. Maybe I should look to them; Better to hear, “You went beyond – but welcome”, than to hear “You almost was there, but you missed it”.

If a line is drawn on a holiness issue, where is ‘safe’?

Standing on the edge of a cliff is safe, but I really prefer to stand at least five feet from the edge.

If “five feet from the edge” of a holiness line of separation is safer, should I attempt to persuade people to come crosser to the edge where I believe it to be just as safe? I say nay, let them take the greater stand and I shall at least applaud the effort.

If the holiness that is in you works in the inside, then there is no reason that it will not work in the outside. If you are holy in the inside, you should be holy in the outside (that’s the mirror of you). If you look beautiful in the outside because of the make-up, what beauty will you have in the inside? Whatever normal looks you have, you are created according to the image of God.

To those who left, here’s why.

2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires,
4 and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.

Its true the OT did not taught make-up, it did not taught smoking either.

I will see you in HEAVEN!!!!!!!!

There are many theologians who differentiate between being baptized in the Spirit and being filled with the Spirit. Everyone who is saved is baptized in the Spirit. In 1 Cor. 12:12-13 Paul makes it clear that all believers are baptized in the Spirit:

“Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.” (NIV)

On the other hand, it is also clear that a person can be filled with the Spirit more than once. In Acts 2:4 Peter was filled with the Spirit, and in Acts 4:8 and 31 he was filled again.

Therefore we can conclude that the baptism of the Spirit is something that happens to all believers, whereas the filling of the Spirit is something that happens repeatedly. The baptism of the Spirit is a one time event that places us in the body of Christ, but the filling of the Spirit happens many times as we are empowered to fulfill God’s mission for us (cf. Acts 1:8). The filling of the Spirit generally accompanies the baptism of the Spirit, and sometimes the words are used interchangeably to describe initial salvation. However, after salvation a person can be filled again but not baptized again.

The question then becomes: Does everyone who is baptized in the Spirit demonstrate outward evidence? Do they all speak in tongues, or prophesy, etc.? The answer to this question seems to be “no.” The only outward sign that the Bible says applies to all believers is the fruit of the Spirit that they go on to bear (cf. Mat. 7:16-23; Mat. 12:33; Luke 6:44; Gal. 5:22-23; Gal. 5:12-26, especially 22-23; Eph. 5:9; James 3:12).

There are times in the Bible where people demonstrated outward signs at the same moment they were baptized / filled with the Spirit. In Acts 2 and 10 they spoke in tongues, in Acts 8 there was the famous “something” that Simon the Sorcerer saw, and in Acts 19 the disciples of John spoke in tongues and prophesied. In my mind this is nothing more than the gifts of the Spirit in action. Tongues is a gift, prophecy is a gift, and there’s every reason to think that whatever was happening in Acts 8 was a gift (it could very well have been some or all of the gifts in Acts 8, not just one).

With that background in mine, let me answer your question. Have I ever seen someone baptized in the Spirit without speaking in tongues? Absolutely. I see it every time someone is saved.

I hope that helps!

God bless,
- Josh S.

I don’t want to argue but I do want to assure you that I read ALL of that before making that comment. :)

Please remember that one of the comment rules is to “read the four introductory pages to this site (Home, About, My Story, Mission Statement) before making assumptions about my motives or the purpose of this site.” In particular, on the “About” page I say:

This site is a place for me to express the reasons why I left the Apostolic movement (I left in November 2006, when I was 26). I originally intended it to be for friends and family, but people who I have never met discovered the site before my family did. Please understand that my goal is not to persuade anyone to leave the movement. My only desire is to open the door for honest and sincere discussion for everyone who visits–regardless of their religious affiliation. It is my prayer that people will read my story and be challenged to examine their own beliefs, and to “get into the Word” to see if what they have been taught is correct!

In short, I don’t harbor bitterness or even try to talk people out of leaving the UPC. If they come to me with questions then I will answer them, but I do not encourage people to leave. I don’t even think people in the UPC are unsaved.

Of course, you have the right to not believe me if you like. But please remember to read those pages before making assumptions.

Thanks for your feedback!

- Josh S.