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	<title>Comments on: Response to UPC Bible study on women wearing pants</title>
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	<link>http://www.whyileft.org/responses-to-the-upc/response-to-upc-bible-study-on-women-wearing-pants/</link>
	<description>Thoughts from the mind of Josh Spiers: Formerly Apostolic Pentecostal, always Christian</description>
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		<title>By: sal</title>
		<link>http://www.whyileft.org/responses-to-the-upc/response-to-upc-bible-study-on-women-wearing-pants/comment-page-2/#comment-18939</link>
		<dc:creator>sal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Nov 2011 19:56:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think the biggest point here in the wearing of male or female apparel is to keep the purity of our thoughts. wearing skirts/dresses for the sake of distinguishing yourself from a man would not make  us anymore virtuous then someone who wears pants. However, the point of wearing skirts or dresses is to keep hidden what should be hidden, to help our fellow men as they are very visual creatures. anything clinging to the body,whether thats a dress skirt or pants, has the potential to create feelings of lust in his heart. If God created men to be visual it is up to the women to help them by dressing a bit more modestly. God is more interested in our hearts, and not everyone walking around in pants is purposely trying to get attention, but some people do purposely try to get attention in the attire they wear, pants or dresses. the point is again, to uphold the purity and integrity of our intentions before God.
I started wearing skirts from always wearing jeans but i know that it wont make me better than anyone wearing pants. i just know that when i do wear skirts now, they are loose and way past my knees,I know that my conscience feels safe before God. I may not get as many looks from men,and sometimes i get laughed at but It is better to care what God dthinks then Men. it would be a poor excuse for me to say to God, well i liked the way my body looked wearing pants, and it felt good knowing men looked at my rear end.
I am sure God would actually prefer long loose skirts/dresses vs pants b/c they hide the female body more,but he does not condem those who wear pants. Again, he looks at the heart and not everyone can go out and afford a new wardrobe.some people are poor.so when i see people wearing tight clothes or pants I do not condemn, b/c i remember i used to wear tight fitting clothes all the time, even in church, and i am a young woman. I am embarrassed at my ignorance as well as pride (for the times i knew i looked good) but i am greatful that God in his grace, opened my eyes and that no one condemed me or embarrassed me for wearing pants.if anything maybe they said a quiet prayer for me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the biggest point here in the wearing of male or female apparel is to keep the purity of our thoughts. wearing skirts/dresses for the sake of distinguishing yourself from a man would not make  us anymore virtuous then someone who wears pants. However, the point of wearing skirts or dresses is to keep hidden what should be hidden, to help our fellow men as they are very visual creatures. anything clinging to the body,whether thats a dress skirt or pants, has the potential to create feelings of lust in his heart. If God created men to be visual it is up to the women to help them by dressing a bit more modestly. God is more interested in our hearts, and not everyone walking around in pants is purposely trying to get attention, but some people do purposely try to get attention in the attire they wear, pants or dresses. the point is again, to uphold the purity and integrity of our intentions before God.<br />
I started wearing skirts from always wearing jeans but i know that it wont make me better than anyone wearing pants. i just know that when i do wear skirts now, they are loose and way past my knees,I know that my conscience feels safe before God. I may not get as many looks from men,and sometimes i get laughed at but It is better to care what God dthinks then Men. it would be a poor excuse for me to say to God, well i liked the way my body looked wearing pants, and it felt good knowing men looked at my rear end.<br />
I am sure God would actually prefer long loose skirts/dresses vs pants b/c they hide the female body more,but he does not condem those who wear pants. Again, he looks at the heart and not everyone can go out and afford a new wardrobe.some people are poor.so when i see people wearing tight clothes or pants I do not condemn, b/c i remember i used to wear tight fitting clothes all the time, even in church, and i am a young woman. I am embarrassed at my ignorance as well as pride (for the times i knew i looked good) but i am greatful that God in his grace, opened my eyes and that no one condemed me or embarrassed me for wearing pants.if anything maybe they said a quiet prayer for me.</p>
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		<title>By: Mina</title>
		<link>http://www.whyileft.org/responses-to-the-upc/response-to-upc-bible-study-on-women-wearing-pants/comment-page-2/#comment-17911</link>
		<dc:creator>Mina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:50:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>How do people equate pant =man and skirt/dress = woman? I attend a UPC church and would like to invite a friend of mine who is indian to church. She goes to an Indian pentecostal church but she wear tradiaitonal Indian Shalwar kameez which is a long tunic with pants underneath. How can I explain to her that the US pentecostal church thinks women who were pants are an abomination? 

The way I see it the shalwar kameez is waaay more modest than some of the tight skirts and blouses I see some girls at church wear. 

Where in the Bible does it say that modesty = Western fashion? Only in European cultures is a dress/skirt = woman and pants = man. In India both men and women wear shalwar kameez. I don&#039;t understand how the Bible says European/Western clothes are what is modest? Please explain?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do people equate pant =man and skirt/dress = woman? I attend a UPC church and would like to invite a friend of mine who is indian to church. She goes to an Indian pentecostal church but she wear tradiaitonal Indian Shalwar kameez which is a long tunic with pants underneath. How can I explain to her that the US pentecostal church thinks women who were pants are an abomination? </p>
<p>The way I see it the shalwar kameez is waaay more modest than some of the tight skirts and blouses I see some girls at church wear. </p>
<p>Where in the Bible does it say that modesty = Western fashion? Only in European cultures is a dress/skirt = woman and pants = man. In India both men and women wear shalwar kameez. I don&#8217;t understand how the Bible says European/Western clothes are what is modest? Please explain?</p>
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		<title>By: Josh (Site Admin)</title>
		<link>http://www.whyileft.org/responses-to-the-upc/response-to-upc-bible-study-on-women-wearing-pants/comment-page-2/#comment-16702</link>
		<dc:creator>Josh (Site Admin)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Sep 2011 18:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Suzanne, a lot of that is left up to the individual missionary. I&#039;ve talked to a lot of UPC missionaries and some of them encourage women and men to dress counter-culturally while others do not. My experience with all of missionaries, not just UPC ones, is that they tend to be more pragmatic and realistic than their leaders back in the States.

In Christ,
- Josh S.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Suzanne, a lot of that is left up to the individual missionary. I&#8217;ve talked to a lot of UPC missionaries and some of them encourage women and men to dress counter-culturally while others do not. My experience with all of missionaries, not just UPC ones, is that they tend to be more pragmatic and realistic than their leaders back in the States.</p>
<p>In Christ,<br />
- Josh S.</p>
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		<title>By: Suzanne</title>
		<link>http://www.whyileft.org/responses-to-the-upc/response-to-upc-bible-study-on-women-wearing-pants/comment-page-2/#comment-16364</link>
		<dc:creator>Suzanne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Sep 2011 03:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Just wondering...Do UPCers insist that those from other countries whom they convert also uphold the &quot;holiness standards&quot; of dress? I mean, Do they insist that a man from a tribe in New Guinea now wear pants in the hot jungle? Or is this another &quot;holiness standard&quot; loophole where it shows the utter hypocrisy of the UPC?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just wondering&#8230;Do UPCers insist that those from other countries whom they convert also uphold the &#8220;holiness standards&#8221; of dress? I mean, Do they insist that a man from a tribe in New Guinea now wear pants in the hot jungle? Or is this another &#8220;holiness standard&#8221; loophole where it shows the utter hypocrisy of the UPC?</p>
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		<title>By: Who wears the trousers? : Changing Attitude</title>
		<link>http://www.whyileft.org/responses-to-the-upc/response-to-upc-bible-study-on-women-wearing-pants/comment-page-2/#comment-15637</link>
		<dc:creator>Who wears the trousers? : Changing Attitude</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Aug 2011 11:29:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] http://www.whyileft.org/responses-to-the-upc/response-to-upc-bible-study-on-women-wearing-pants/ [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] <a href="http://www.whyileft.org/responses-to-the-upc/response-to-upc-bible-study-on-women-wearing-pants/" rel="nofollow">http://www.whyileft.org/responses-to-the-upc/response-to-upc-bible-study-on-women-wearing-pants/</a> [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Marie</title>
		<link>http://www.whyileft.org/responses-to-the-upc/response-to-upc-bible-study-on-women-wearing-pants/comment-page-2/#comment-15060</link>
		<dc:creator>Marie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jul 2011 00:53:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think this is all ridiculous. Who cares what anyone wears at all? I really don&#039;t think your god would. I thought jesus was supposed to love you for your merits, your repentance or whatever, and the fact that you accepted him as your savior...not if you wear pants or skirts (by the way...if women are supposed to wear dresses to demonstrate their modesty, where do you draw the line as to how long they are supposed to be? What about the material they are made of? The tightness of such skirts or dresses? Does it say anything about that in your book?) There are too many dumb rules that you all talk about instead of just accepting your god and jesus and doing the best you can to not sin. I&#039;m sure your god won&#039;t reject you because you misunderstood some weird translation about whether or not to wear pants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think this is all ridiculous. Who cares what anyone wears at all? I really don&#8217;t think your god would. I thought jesus was supposed to love you for your merits, your repentance or whatever, and the fact that you accepted him as your savior&#8230;not if you wear pants or skirts (by the way&#8230;if women are supposed to wear dresses to demonstrate their modesty, where do you draw the line as to how long they are supposed to be? What about the material they are made of? The tightness of such skirts or dresses? Does it say anything about that in your book?) There are too many dumb rules that you all talk about instead of just accepting your god and jesus and doing the best you can to not sin. I&#8217;m sure your god won&#8217;t reject you because you misunderstood some weird translation about whether or not to wear pants.</p>
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		<title>By: marti</title>
		<link>http://www.whyileft.org/responses-to-the-upc/response-to-upc-bible-study-on-women-wearing-pants/comment-page-2/#comment-9382</link>
		<dc:creator>marti</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Feb 2011 23:52:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I am a Pentecostal but I do cut my hair and my daughters wear pants to school for modesty issues. I have asked alot of questions lateley which no one seems to be able to answer. Why do we have to adhere to deut. 22:5, but the men do not have to wear tassels on their cloak, we do not observe the sabbath as the jews do, we do not eat kosher why do we mix linen and wool when it is commanded not to? How come a woman can take the vow of a Nazarite when at the end of the vow ,she has to shave her head? Yes, the scripture does say &quot; if a man OR WOMAN takes the vow of a nazarite &quot;ect.

I don&#039;t know, I have been taught my whole life against many things but when I ask some of these questions I get told, &quot;that is for the jews&quot;. Ok, then so is Deut 22:5. It can&#039;t be one thing for the women and the men not have to follow some rules too. It is also in Lev about  the man wearing the tassles but it&#039;s always just for the jews.
I just pray to be saved and to please God. My girls wear pants to school because they feel more covered. When I first put them in them I asked &quot;how do you feel? Do you feel wierd or like it is wrong? My 13 year old looked at me and said &quot; I feel more covered mom&quot;. We then discussed being in prayer about it and if at any time felt conviction, then they would go back to all skirts. I have to look out for my family, my girls are very active and there are alot of teenage boys in our nieghborhood and they feel more covered knowing that there undergarmets will not be seen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am a Pentecostal but I do cut my hair and my daughters wear pants to school for modesty issues. I have asked alot of questions lateley which no one seems to be able to answer. Why do we have to adhere to deut. 22:5, but the men do not have to wear tassels on their cloak, we do not observe the sabbath as the jews do, we do not eat kosher why do we mix linen and wool when it is commanded not to? How come a woman can take the vow of a Nazarite when at the end of the vow ,she has to shave her head? Yes, the scripture does say &#8221; if a man OR WOMAN takes the vow of a nazarite &#8220;ect.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know, I have been taught my whole life against many things but when I ask some of these questions I get told, &#8220;that is for the jews&#8221;. Ok, then so is Deut 22:5. It can&#8217;t be one thing for the women and the men not have to follow some rules too. It is also in Lev about  the man wearing the tassles but it&#8217;s always just for the jews.<br />
I just pray to be saved and to please God. My girls wear pants to school because they feel more covered. When I first put them in them I asked &#8220;how do you feel? Do you feel wierd or like it is wrong? My 13 year old looked at me and said &#8221; I feel more covered mom&#8221;. We then discussed being in prayer about it and if at any time felt conviction, then they would go back to all skirts. I have to look out for my family, my girls are very active and there are alot of teenage boys in our nieghborhood and they feel more covered knowing that there undergarmets will not be seen.</p>
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		<title>By: Raymond</title>
		<link>http://www.whyileft.org/responses-to-the-upc/response-to-upc-bible-study-on-women-wearing-pants/comment-page-2/#comment-8922</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Jan 2011 00:12:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>My previous comment, last line should read:
I personally believe that &#039;dress codes&#039; will not keep us out of heaven</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My previous comment, last line should read:<br />
I personally believe that &#8216;dress codes&#8217; will not keep us out of heaven</p>
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		<title>By: Raymond</title>
		<link>http://www.whyileft.org/responses-to-the-upc/response-to-upc-bible-study-on-women-wearing-pants/comment-page-2/#comment-8918</link>
		<dc:creator>Raymond</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Jan 2011 20:09:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Deut. 22:5 is in the Old Testament, book of the Law, laws given to the children of Israel to live by. The christian church is in the New Testament, we live by God&#039;s grace. Whatever laws from the O.T. that were meant for the church were repeated in the N.T.
I personally believe that &#039;dress codes&#039; are going to keep us out of heaven</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deut. 22:5 is in the Old Testament, book of the Law, laws given to the children of Israel to live by. The christian church is in the New Testament, we live by God&#8217;s grace. Whatever laws from the O.T. that were meant for the church were repeated in the N.T.<br />
I personally believe that &#8216;dress codes&#8217; are going to keep us out of heaven</p>
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		<title>By: Tonya</title>
		<link>http://www.whyileft.org/responses-to-the-upc/response-to-upc-bible-study-on-women-wearing-pants/comment-page-2/#comment-8888</link>
		<dc:creator>Tonya</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Jan 2011 00:53:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think we all have varying opinions as to what we think scripture means.  I had just told my daughter that when she reads scripture OR when a preacher is reading from the Bible, to read along with him!  I also told her to pay close attention to when &#039;standards and rules&#039; are lain down to make sure ONE scripture isn&#039;t taken from a chapter and made into a totally different meaning.  One scripture taken from a chapter to make a point totally different from what it is intended, is a form of taking away from the Word in my opinion.  And yet, we see this done so many times.

Personally, on the dress issue, I feel that God intends His people to be set apart; a peculiar people if you will.  God didn&#039;t create man and woman to be equal no matter how much women want it that way- we are the weaker vessel.  I think it is a form of submitting to the husband when we wear a dress- and I know it sounds a bit out there- BUT  I think it just looks more like a man/woman role when the man is wearing the pants to symbolize the head of the house, and the woman is in a dress symbolizing femininity and grace.  When men and women swap out the dress, what do people automatically think or assume?!  Deuteronomy 22:5 says that &#039;The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, NEITHER shall a man put on a woman&#039;s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord they God.   I don&#039;t have to have any reference book to tell me what &#039;pertaineth to&#039; means.  And the scripture is plain when it includes both male and female in not wearing garments that pertain to the other.  God sees it as an abomination- He hates it.   Man and woman are not equal, so it stands to reason that there should be distinctions between the two- having a dress code is really the only way that sets the two apart I think. Personally, I don&#039;t think many churches today teach this doctrine- and for sake of making enemies here, - maybe it is because the people do not want their pastor telling them what to do or what the Word  says- &quot;Just tickle our ears and tell us what we want to hear or we won&#039;t pay you mentality.&quot;  

UPC was not the only denomination that taught their women wear to dresses as a standard of holiness.  I remember when the Assembly of God did so as well.  Conforming or compromising to please people allows people to think that what they were taught before was perhaps wrong.  I was not always in the UPC Organization.  When I did become a member of the church, I had no problem with the dress code and I was just a teenager.   I felt a change and changing my outward appearance was something I felt I needed to do too.  The Bible is plain when it says &quot;Thou shalt not wear that which pertaineth to...&quot;    In other words, anything that resembled what a man wore was not acceptable- such as a cap, a tie, or pants.  In days of old, men and women wore robes as much as we know from history.  Although there were robes, there were distinctions for the two to set the woman and man apart.  As times changed, dress also did- BUT there was still that distinction.   And if we stop and think about it, there are no dresses for men- putting the buttons on the other side or the zipper on the other side does not make that dress look anymore like a man than leaving it as it was originally.  I do believe at the first in our generation, women wore dresses and men wore pants.  It wasn&#039;t until later years that women dared to put on pants and smoke cigarettes, etc.   And I imagine there were no &#039;women&#039;s pants&#039; at that time since women didn&#039;t yet wear them. Was it a coming out to make a statement or to be rebellious in a way- who knows?  Again, as years went by, women got a little bolder, wanting equal rights in regards to the man.  I do not think that was God&#039;s intentions for the woman.  But God pushes Himself off on no one and so people rebelled and went their own way.  We live in a society where anything goes and people do not want others telling them what they can and cannot do.  As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he, and what is inside manifests itself outwardly.  And so judgement is reserved for all of us- we have to live by the choices we make and only God truly knows whether our hearts are right or not.  If the UPC doctrine is wrong then no one is hurt- I do not think UPC members will be sent to hell because of their dress code.  BUT if the UPC dress code is right......   Study to show thine own self approved is all any of us can do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think we all have varying opinions as to what we think scripture means.  I had just told my daughter that when she reads scripture OR when a preacher is reading from the Bible, to read along with him!  I also told her to pay close attention to when &#8216;standards and rules&#8217; are lain down to make sure ONE scripture isn&#8217;t taken from a chapter and made into a totally different meaning.  One scripture taken from a chapter to make a point totally different from what it is intended, is a form of taking away from the Word in my opinion.  And yet, we see this done so many times.</p>
<p>Personally, on the dress issue, I feel that God intends His people to be set apart; a peculiar people if you will.  God didn&#8217;t create man and woman to be equal no matter how much women want it that way- we are the weaker vessel.  I think it is a form of submitting to the husband when we wear a dress- and I know it sounds a bit out there- BUT  I think it just looks more like a man/woman role when the man is wearing the pants to symbolize the head of the house, and the woman is in a dress symbolizing femininity and grace.  When men and women swap out the dress, what do people automatically think or assume?!  Deuteronomy 22:5 says that &#8216;The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, NEITHER shall a man put on a woman&#8217;s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord they God.   I don&#8217;t have to have any reference book to tell me what &#8216;pertaineth to&#8217; means.  And the scripture is plain when it includes both male and female in not wearing garments that pertain to the other.  God sees it as an abomination- He hates it.   Man and woman are not equal, so it stands to reason that there should be distinctions between the two- having a dress code is really the only way that sets the two apart I think. Personally, I don&#8217;t think many churches today teach this doctrine- and for sake of making enemies here, &#8211; maybe it is because the people do not want their pastor telling them what to do or what the Word  says- &#8220;Just tickle our ears and tell us what we want to hear or we won&#8217;t pay you mentality.&#8221;  </p>
<p>UPC was not the only denomination that taught their women wear to dresses as a standard of holiness.  I remember when the Assembly of God did so as well.  Conforming or compromising to please people allows people to think that what they were taught before was perhaps wrong.  I was not always in the UPC Organization.  When I did become a member of the church, I had no problem with the dress code and I was just a teenager.   I felt a change and changing my outward appearance was something I felt I needed to do too.  The Bible is plain when it says &#8220;Thou shalt not wear that which pertaineth to&#8230;&#8221;    In other words, anything that resembled what a man wore was not acceptable- such as a cap, a tie, or pants.  In days of old, men and women wore robes as much as we know from history.  Although there were robes, there were distinctions for the two to set the woman and man apart.  As times changed, dress also did- BUT there was still that distinction.   And if we stop and think about it, there are no dresses for men- putting the buttons on the other side or the zipper on the other side does not make that dress look anymore like a man than leaving it as it was originally.  I do believe at the first in our generation, women wore dresses and men wore pants.  It wasn&#8217;t until later years that women dared to put on pants and smoke cigarettes, etc.   And I imagine there were no &#8216;women&#8217;s pants&#8217; at that time since women didn&#8217;t yet wear them. Was it a coming out to make a statement or to be rebellious in a way- who knows?  Again, as years went by, women got a little bolder, wanting equal rights in regards to the man.  I do not think that was God&#8217;s intentions for the woman.  But God pushes Himself off on no one and so people rebelled and went their own way.  We live in a society where anything goes and people do not want others telling them what they can and cannot do.  As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he, and what is inside manifests itself outwardly.  And so judgement is reserved for all of us- we have to live by the choices we make and only God truly knows whether our hearts are right or not.  If the UPC doctrine is wrong then no one is hurt- I do not think UPC members will be sent to hell because of their dress code.  BUT if the UPC dress code is right&#8230;&#8230;   Study to show thine own self approved is all any of us can do.</p>
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